LATIN MASS V NOVUS ORDO ROUND TWO: A BIT OF A PILE-ON

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I hesitate to call this a cat fight. After all, two guys are involved and I applaud them for mixing it with the women. 

It's the question of Novus Ordo (the 'New Mass') versus TLM (Traditional Latin Mass), taken up from where we left it a couple of nights ago because really, what other debate in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church matters so much as this one? 

It's not a matter of pitting one Mass against the other because the two can, and do, co-exist. It's really the question of faithfulness to Christ's Gospel and His Church which is the issue, and it's to be regretted perhaps that Round Two of this fight seems a bit of a pile-on - but maybe that's to be expected on a traditional Catholic blog. 

Any reader sitting in the N O corner who wants to enter the fray is welcome. Clean punches only, please ...

Seconds out, Round Two!

Theresa Rogers says: Monica Devine, I’ve met people at TLM and Novus ordo and loved them all. It’s not the people at the Mass I have an issue with...it’s the Mass itself, or more to the point, the abuses there. How can anyone tell another church goer's interior disposition?

Like watching invited Protestants receive communion, female servers dropping the Blood of Christ on the floor, chatting before, during and straight after the Mass. In fact, sometimes the sign of peace in the middle of the mass turns into a big wandering fest and an excuse to catch up. Even the priest coming down to join in.

Should we be thankful that the men aren't hugging too? 

I don’t have to witness any of that at TLM. My soul can relax and focus on our Lord, instead of anticipating and dreading what’s going to happen next ...

I say: Oh, how I empathise ...

.. But the people. I have no issue with them.

Philippa O'Neill says: Amen sister. It is the peace and quiet of the Holy Mass. I'm going to.Holy Mass... not a theatre production!  

Monica Devine says: Theresa, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not judging anyone here but merely pointing out that one’s interior disposition is absolutely crucial. I also never said I do not love them… 

Philippa O'Neill: Monica, I just want to be left alone to go to.Mass without being hassled. To be able to receive Our Lord on the tongue without being told no. I attend both Masses... TLM and NO on week days. Maybe you might attend the TLM for a few weeks and see if you get any nasty kickback from your NO priest for attending.
I'm lucky that my family and friends don't care what Mass I go to but many people have a terrible time with rudeness and family members trying to stop them attending the TLM. Maybe that's why many you know have fallen away.
The reaction from my NO PP to my attending the TLM has been nothing short of sinful and disgusting.. he is in an unholy war against the TLM. And when I hear the accusations from N O churchgoers and priests that the TLM people don't give back to the church then that really saddens me. Many I know do amazing work in the community. We don't have to work in the church... there's enough women doing all that anyway... the church is run by women.

Anyone else feel the priest is somewhat outnumbered?

Theresa Rogers: Monica, SSPX is not outside the church. I don’t know where you get your misinformation from, but seriously. 

Monica Devine: Theresa yes, SSPX is outside of the church most definitely. I have studied this and the consensus is that once a community refuses to acknowledge the primacy of the Papacy, they are no longer part of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. Of course, that doesn't stop us all praying for a reunification with them as we pray for reunification with all of the other protestant denominations. I pray for that everyday.

Brad Larsen: Monica, the SSPX has never ‘rejected the primacy of the papacy’ as you say and never would - he along with the local Ordinary is prayed for in every Mass they offer. I think what you’re confused with is the fact that the SSPX currently has an irregular canonical status (due to no fault of their own I might add) which Pope Francis actually has a lot of sympathy for hence his move to personally provide the faculties for SSPX priests to hear confessions universally by this mandate. 

Other clear signs that the SSPX isn’t ‘outside the Church’ as you claim is Pope Benedict’s lifting of the excommunications from the Society’s bishops which according to some was thought to have taken place when they were consecrated as it was perceived as a schismatic act. Some years later this was by implication rejected by Rome when the latae sententiae ‘excommunications’ were lifted as there’s clearly been no schism. 

Another example of the SSPX clearly being inside the Church was the Pope’s appointment of the then Superior General Bishop Fellay to act as a judge on the Roman Rota - the Church’s ‘Supreme Court’. If you have eyes to see and humility to accept it.

Monica it’s quite clear that the SSPX is simply Catholic, nothing more, nothing less. I’m sorry that that seems to bother you so much but it is what it is. They propagate the Faith as it always was and celebrate the Sacraments as they always were, devoid of the Modernism that has infected almost every corner of the Church. You really do need to check your sources before spreading false information about fellow Catholics online because that’s simply slander.

Philippa O'Neill: Brad, yes, this is what I have been led to believe too.

Monica Devine: Brad, I would advise you to also check your sources. It’s not slander to say SSPX is outside the church. It’s a statement of fact. If you want to attend the TLM you should agitate to have it more widely available within the church not leave it. It’s separatist. 

Most if not all TLM er’s do not consider the NO to be a valid Mass.

Philippa O'Neill: I'm not sure where you are getting your info from Monica. Many of the TLM people were at the N O Mass today even tho they are denied communion.

Monica Devine: Philippa, our family who are SSPX will not ever attend a NO Mass.

Philippa O'Neill: Monica, you can't judge everyone on your family. That's very sad. We have the opp. Problem... NO's not attending TLM baptisms... so it goes both ways.

Brad Larsen says: Monica,  I’ve done plenty of research into this thanks. And from your wild claims you clearly haven’t. The examples given you above should suffice but I can see you’re either not willing or able to accept them which is a shame.

Monica Devine: "By definition, their request carried with it an acknowledgement of the Pope's authority over the Church here on earth." Pope Benedict XVI explained that the SSPX has no canonical status in the Catholic Church for doctrinal reasons and that SSPX ministers "do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."

And for you, Philippa, in 1995, PCED explained that it "morally illicit for the faithful to participate in" SSPX Masses "unless they are physically or morally impeded from participating in a Mass celebrated by a Catholic priest in good standing" and added that not being able to assist at a Tridentine Mass "is not considered a sufficient motive for attending such Masses."[14]. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand your legitimate desire for the TLM. I do. I am just warning you that you should never abandon the barque of Peter even for very lofty and idealistic motives.

Philippa O'Neill: um Monica.. I don't attend at SSPX... I'm in Dunedin and we have a Latin Mass here every Sunday am. It's only at the NO Mass that we are denied Communion on the tongue. Our Bishop often attends our functions. 

Theresa Rogers: Most TLM goers DO consider N O Mass valid. They just don’t enjoy the spiritual abuses they often witness there, but the consecration IS valid.

Monica Devine: Philippa, good to hear. You will excuse me from thinking, due to your defence of SSPX, that you had gone over to the dark side.

Theresa Rogers: Monica, if your local TLM Massgoers refuse to attend their local N O church that probably more to do with the local church itself than the N O Mass alone.

I can tell you, if I could find a N O mass that was good I’d happily attend it. In fact, I’m searching for one semi locally to supplement my available TLM which are only twice a month.

I’ve kept trying my parish N O church, but I always leave upset.

Monica Devine: Theresa, I suggest you keep looking.

Philippa, I sincerely care about those who have gone to SSPX and pray for their return. I understand their motivation as I sought out the TLM in my youth. 

Theresa, there is a difference btw those who attend permitted TLM’s and those who attend SSPX Masses. I think you will find anyone who has been in SSPX for any length of time would say nay to N O Mass. That is definitely the case with the Whanganui SSPX community and I know many of them.

St Anthony's SSPX School Whanganui (church just visible to the left)

Theresa Rogers: Monica, I attend SSPX and FFSP. I see no difference in the people at either. In fact, most people I know there attend both and have given up on their local NO for the most. Although some still attend local NO too.

As I said, if your local TLM goers refuse to attend their local N O mass, it’s probably more to do with what they witness at their local church.

And even if it isn’t, so what? Everyone at my local N O refuses to attend TLM. 

Monica Devine: Theresa, ditto.  I told you already that I love the TLM and go whenever I am able but will never attend Mass celebrated by an SSPX priest because no good ever comes from disobedience. Never did Henry XIII any good.… 

Theresa Rogers: Canon law regarding SSPX, Baptism, holy Eucharist, confirmation, anointing of the sick, and ordination (screen shot supplied). 

The sticking point was the Sacrament of Reconciliation and Marriage.

But then the Holy Father in Rome addressed that too...

By Tim Staples:

“Right, well, because of their irregular status–although I don’t know if our inquirer is aware that there’s been more good news concerning movement toward full communion today; as many of our listeners know, our Holy Father during the Year of Mercy extended faculties, exercising his immediate juridical authority, he communicated faculties to hear confessions to all SSPX priests. That was really remarkable, and since the Year of Mercy ended, he did not take those away, so they they are yet extended. This is our Holy Father, he is the priest of mercy.

Well, we just–in fact I was just reading it before I came over here, I didn’t finish reading the whole letter from from the Vatican on this–but it states that our Holy Father is encouraging bishops around the world to grant faculties. It’s not a mandate, he’s not exercising his immediate juridical authority as he did with confession, but he’s encouraging the Ordinaries to extend faculties, where possible, to the SSPX to witness marriages.”

So, for all intent and purpose, an SSPX priest can perform every act associated with Mass with Church approval.

Why there is any question about full communion now is simply semantics.

On July 7, 2007, Pope Benedict XVI launched one of the boldest papal initiatives since Vatican II: He declared that the traditional liturgy of the Roman rite, which he said was NEVER ABROGATED, was officially available to all the Church’s faithful alongside the new liturgy of Pope Paul VI. Pope John Paul II had allowed for the traditional Latin Mass on a limited basis since the 1980s; with his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum Pope Benedict removed the remaining restrictions.

In the letter he wrote to bishops, the Holy Father’s words explaining his decision are but an elegant expression of common sense: If the older liturgy was sacred in the past, then it is sacred now as well. “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.” 

Summorum Pontificum declared that the older liturgy “must be given due honor for its venerable and ancient usage.” This due honor, according to Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” president Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, should be shown by making the traditional Latin Mass available even where it has not been specifically requested. The pope is especially hopeful that young people will be exposed to the Extraordinary Form.

Although some Catholics have followed these matters very closely over the years, others may not have understood quite so clearly exactly what the pope has said and done, or what the practical results of all this might be. Here I provide answers to a number of common questions....

Read on...

https://www.catholic.com/.../print.../extraordinary-form-101

From same article above..

Scholars have begun to conclude, contrary to popular belief, that Mass facing the people was not in fact the regular practice of the early Church, and that Mass facing east has been the historic norm. “

As I have written in my books, I think that celebration turned towards the east, towards the Christ who is coming, is an apostolic tradition,” wrote Pope Benedict XVI in 2004, while still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Looking Again at the Question of the Liturgy with Cardinal Ratzinger: Proceedings of the July 2001 Fontgombault Liturgical Conference, 151). 

In fact, those parts of the early Catholic world in which the sacrificial.aspect of the Mass was best understood were most likely to celebrate Mass ad orientem. “The common direction of priest and people is intrinsically fitting and proper to the liturgical action,” Cardinal Ratzinger explained (Foreword, Turning Towards the Lord: Orientation in Liturgical Prayer by U.M. Lang)."

More from article...

"Will I be able to get anything out of it if I don’t speak Latin?

Of course. For centuries the popes insisted on the value of a non-vernacular language for the Mass, and as Catholics we owe them at least the benefit of the doubt that they cared about the spiritual lives of the faithful. It’s easy to follow along in your missal, especially once you’ve attended this Mass a few times. Next to no one spoke Latin in the old days, and yet their souls were deeply nourished by the Mass, and (if polling data is to be believed) they understood the meaning of the Mass far better than do most Catholics today.

It’s important to remember what Pope Bl. John XXIII said about the value of Latin. “The Catholic Church,” he explained, “has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular” (Veterum Sapientia, On the Promotion of the Study of Latin). 

It makes sense that we should leave behind what differentiates us from each other as Americans, Frenchmen, Koreans, or whatever, and meet for worship in a language that privileges no single group but is the common possession of us all. Just two generations ago, wherever someone went in the world he would encounter the same Mass he knew at home—a beautiful testament to the universality of the Church."

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre

The fact this was EVER in question says more about the arrogance of people who desired to change and modernise it and PREVENT Catholics from participating in it. Not on the head of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who simply wished to continue 2000 years of Catholicism as it was taught to him and all of the Saints in the history of the church. He never told them they couldn’t do their new Mass. He simply wished to continue with historical Catholicism. And not be persecuted for it. 

The threat to the new Mass was that given the choice, people might not like it.

Well, as we can see, the results speak for themselves. The new Mass has created an environment where 70% of Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence, and churches are dying. Literally.

The average age of my local Novus Ordo parishioner would be around 70. And the vast majority of their children have either become Protestant or atheist.

So I say, have that Mass if that’s what you prefer. It’s valid. But people desire traditional Catholicism, where almost all attendees DO believe in the Real Presence and want to show Jesus the respect he deserves because of that belief. Why do Novus Ordo parishes feel so threatened by this?

Monica Devine: Maybe not but I think that is true for almost 100% of Whanganui SSPX which happens to be the biggest community in NZ by a long way.

I say: It seems to me, Monica, that you're drawing a long bow.  

The fact still stands that SSPX has no canonical status fullstop. Not feeling at all threatened by my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ. But if I don’t speak up and warn them I too could forfeit my hope in everlasting life.

Theresa Rogers: Monica well maybe they don't wish to attend your church because of your attitude towards them.  SSPX has canonical authority as I posted above. To have Mass, baptise, and confirm, and under Pope Francis to hear confessions and marry. 

SSPX are not Protestants for adhering to timeless Catholicism. If they were, then every saint in the Catholic Church must be a Protestant because that’s the Mass they were formed by.

Monica Devine: Theresa my 'attitude’ towards them is one of sisterly affection and a sincere desire that they come back to full communion with the Catholic Church. When I talk about the disorder of homosexuality the same criticism is levelled at me. I love those in SSPX. I do not love or agree with their choice to leave the Church. From today’s psalm -‘Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him’.

Theresa Rogers: Monica have posted info direct from canonical Catholic sources about their standing and what they can and cannot do. And from Pope Francis. He permitted the sacrament of reconciliation and marriage. 

Theresa Rogers: You may not wish to attend my church. But I’m not insisting you must or you’re not Catholic. I acknowledge N O is Catholic. I just do not like the abuses towards the Eucharist that I witness there. They nearly made me leave the church again. 

I don’t even think all N O churches are the same. Same are more reverent than others. However, arguably, the more traditional the N O is, the less spiritual abuse you witness. I’ve given you the evidence.

Bob Gill says: Attending a Novus Ordo Mass in any church in New Zealand means you have to be prepared for the local church interpretation of how the Vatican II Mass should be celebrated. The uniformity associated with the Traditional Mass is not evident at NO from one town to the next, which has been my experience while attending Masses in the Hamilton and Palmerston North dioceses over the last 20 years.

Uniformity is essential for controlling how things should tick over properly, something the Catholic Church obviously learnt hundreds of years ago – before Vatican II, it appears. By allowing local priests and parishioners the ability to change the Vatican II Mass liturgy according to THEIR interpretation, and not getting them to maintain a set liturgical formula, problems have been allowed to occur – and will continue until they are addressed.

One inconvenient change for me while attending NO Mass in the Palmerston North diocese is the close setting of pews, deliberately set up to accommodate most parishioners who stand and sit at Mass and an obvious ploy to make it difficult for those who kneel at Mass. At venues like the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit, then, the best place to attend Mass is away from the pews at the back of the church.

Monica Devine: Bob, I would rather pray with a broken and imperfect church than leave it for yet another Protestant reimagining of what church is. In trying to hold fast to tradition, the TLMers have left behind the Church which Christ instituted and promised never to abandon. I prefer His promise to the pride of a rejected and disobedient prelate.

Bob Gill: To my mind, Monica, it’s the N O church that has left behind the Church which Christ instituted. For example, I witness: altars deliberately situated a few inches OFF the Sanctuary; the Blessed Sacrament moved to a separate room where virtually none of those attending Mass visit after Mass; genuflecting to the Blessed Sacrament (if It’s in the church) gives way to either a curt bow by SOME parishioners or is completely ignored by many – especially most of the school teachers and all of the children at each school Mass; the touching of people by lay ministers while distributing Communion while using the same hand that holds the Blessed Sacrament – contaminating the Lord (convince me these ministers believe they hold the Body of Christ); An estimated 70% of parishioners don't believe in the Real Presence. 

Not a solid base, I'm thinking, for passing onto the children who are the future of the Church. You do well to worry about Protestant reimagining of the Church!

I say: Bob, it's the Novus Ordo effect ...

Theresa Rogers: Monica how can the traditional Church, which has been practised for over a thousand years, be Protestant. But the ‘new’ Church literally designed by Protestant ministers about 50 years ago, be more Catholic?

The mind boggles at this logic. 

Why do you insist on condemning traditional Catholics? It’s relentless. We only know anything about the Church because of her traditions. Many graces have been lost because of modernising everything. Prayers no longer said,sacraments reduced to optional.

“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.”

2 Thessalonians 2:14 DRC1752

When you hear Gods truth, you have to respond. Just how it is.

https://youtu.be/y6uTXUOSf7k

YOUTUBE.COM

Fr. Michael Rodríguez: How I Left the New Mass and Found Tradition

Like this beautiful priest, Fr. Rodriguez, I had no idea about TLM or the beauty held within Catholicism.

Fr Michael Rodriguez

I left the church many years ago because nuns were teaching modern concepts and as a teenager I came to the conclusion they didnt even believe what they claimed. So why should I?

I didnt know anything of Vatican 2, I didn’t know there used to be a different Mass. I remember some elderly parishioners receiving the Eucharist on their tongue at the NO mass which I grew up with, but didn’t know why. I thought it was just optional. I had no concept of why.

When God led me back to his holy Church, it was even worse than when I left 40 years ago. I nearly left again. But thought where will I go, it’s the truth 

That’s when I began researching traditional Catholicism, the Saints, and the catechism. It seemed at odds with the homilies I was hearing.

Then I discovered the TLM.. and my soul cried out with joy and relief.

Then I discovered NO Mass goers have a special hatred for traditionalism. Particularly the women at NO Mass. I just couldn’t understand why. I heard complaints about the priest not facing them, and not feeling inclusive enough. I heard how ‘community’ was more important than the actual Sacrifice of the Mass.

I tried and tried to keep going to NO Mass, but the realisation that it was damaging my 12 year old son's faith and development in Catholicism was overwhelming. 

My priest was telling him it didn’t matter about becoming Catholic, he watched the local Anglicans receiving Communion at mass so this proved he didn’t have to be Catholic, the RCIA book he gave me to go over with him literally said don’t try to convert anyone, Muslims are good Muslims and Gandhi was a special holy man. Leave them where they are.

I thought, if I continue this he won’t bother, and why should he! The church is telling him God is happy with all religions.

My TLM priest recommended the Baltimore Catechism for him. And he’s never looked back. He was baptised and confirmed this year. And loves the Church and the Traditional Latin Mass.

Once an N O priest, now only the TLM - Fr Michael Rodriguez