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"Why," a Proddy asked today, "would the Pope want to get rid of the Latin Mass?"
"Because the Traditional Latin Mass is the future of the Catholic Church. The Latin Mass stands against the New World Church planned by the globalists: Gates, Soros, Schwab, Fauci - and Jorge Mario Bergoglio," was the answer.
Michael Matt of the Remnant Magazine isn't quite so blunt. He says: "The only bright spot in a world full of abuse victims and shuttered churches" (so you of the Land of Mordor, take heart: you haven't got that on your own) "is the dramatic growth of the Traditional Latin Mass communities. Obviously, Pope Francis the Great Reset will have to do something to stop that!"
On the other hand, he reassures us that no priest actually needs permission to offer the Mass of All Time. That's an historical fact and even Francis, Matt says, can't abolish that.
Last Friday's post, "PUT AN END TO IT FOREVER!": CARDINAL PAROLIN ON THE LATIN MASS", provoked a proper ding-dong of Novus Ordo (OF) v Latin Mass (EF) on Facebook. Many of you, my friends, despise Facebook and it's true that all the skullduggery and schadenfreude on its pages has great potential for harm, starting with timewasting (ouch!) especially seeing that "The tongue no man can tame, an unquiet evil, full of deadly poison" (Jas 3:8).
But now that Jaxcinda is threatening to gag us all it's more important than ever that people have a platform on which to speak freely. I fervently wish they'd come straight to this blog via their gmail account, because transiting the ding-dong from Facebook to here was a hideous task: the software's simply not up to it.
And you'll all be pleased to know that the combatants were nice. They were kind.
"This war against the (Latin) Mass," says Michael Matt, "has been raging for a long time, and Francis is just doing his part to push the old, established agenda to first Protestantize the Mass and then abolish it altogether."
It's vitally important for New Zealanders to have their say in this war, even if it's only on Canto Fermo, so begging your indulgence for the gremlins who got into the works - and the spelling and the grammar, I gave up on that really - here's this particular little battle:
Theresa Rogers:
If I didn’t know that we deserve the papacy we get, I’d be sorely tempted to become sede.
Paul Young:
And you people wonder why your church is dying ...
Anthony Albano:
Paul it will never die.
Jeanette Hancock:
Paul it's not dying. Not even close. It's just some people tend to take a doom and gloom approach to the occassional slight against liturgy.
David Gianotti:
Paul, what a rookie comment.
Mark Gasparini:
Both forms of the Mass are authentic and valid. There is no problem with a lay person reading at the Novis Ordo Mass, this has always been the case so why bring it up as if it is something bad. While there are elements/people in the church working against the Traditional Latin Mass for sure, that has nothing to do with the validity of the Novis Ordo Mass. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
I say:
Mark, I attend both forms of the Mass. I don't deny the N O is valid: I have to attend it as the TLM isn't celebrated in my area. But the N O is, and always has been, problematical in many respects, of which lay readers are only one: you need only look at the massive decline in Mass attendance, priestly vocations and belief in the Eucharist - to see that the tree of the Novus Ordo is bad, and lay readers are only one of its bad fruits.
But I mentioned (lay readers) only to direct attention to the traditional Latin Mass and the threat against it made by the Secretary of State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin, and his henchman Archbishop Arthur Roche.
Theresa Rogers: Authenticity and validity is not the issue. Fullness and completeness is.
Theresa Rogers:
Mark Gasparini:I’m seriously sick to death of the word ‘rigid’ 🙄🙄🙄
Maybe you should stop being ‘rigid’ against this Ardern government. You know they are ‘valid’ and ‘authentic’.
https://www.forbes.com/.../against-the-catholic-grain.../
Against The Catholic Grain: Pope Francis Trumpets Socialism Over Capitalism.
Remember Francis saying you shouldn’t be ‘rigid’ about politicians who endorse abortion because there are other more socialist and environmental issues that are also important.
Just more ‘rigid’ Catholics being ‘rigid’...https://www.nytimes.com/.../biden-vatican-communion... Vatican Warns U.S. Bishops: Don’t Deny Biden Communion Over Abortion NYTIMES.COM Vatican Warns U.S. Bishops: Don’t Deny Biden Communion Over Abortion “He recalled, as he has in the past, that people who take rigid positions are usually using them to mask their own problems, scandals or "imbalances."”
Brad Larsen:
Julia, just one of the many ruptures with Sacred Tradition you find in the 'New Mass'.Here's what the future Pope Benedict XVI once said on the New Mass back in 1990. "The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."
I say:
Brad, yes, the Mass of Ages was shelved by Vat2 in favour of something invented by a committee in the space of five years.
Brad Larsen:
With Protestant advisors on the aforementioned committee ensuring the final product wasn't offensive to their communities!
Theresa Rogers:
Theresa Rogers:
I say: That Anglican 'prayer' - the fake, non-Scriptural "for thine is the kingdom etc" which wild horses wouldn't drag out of me - is an insult to our Eucharistic Lord present on the altar. Dr Peter Kwasniewski is a good man to go to for more evidence in favour of abolishing the N O and restoring the Latin Mass.
Brad Larsen:
And the list goes on - there are so many facets of the Novus Ordo Missae that were designed to destroy the Faith and to that sad end it's been a raving success! And whilst it might have taken these Modernists 5 years to think it all up it apparently only took 2 hours at a Roman Trattoria to dream up 'Eucharistic Prayer 2' which is the usual substitute for the beautiful Roman Canon.it might have taken these Modernists 5 years to think it all up. https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/.../original-sins...
Original Sins: Eucharistic Prayer II - composed in a few hours in a Roman Trattoria
RORATE-CAELI.BLOGSPOT.COM
Theresa Rogers:
I’m seriously sick to death of the word ‘rigid’ 🙄🙄🙄
Maybe you should stop being ‘rigid’ against this Ardern government. You know they are ‘valid’ and ‘authentic’.
Mark Gasparini:
Theresa, not remotely similar. I am rigid against evil doing and I hope you are too. We are both believing Catholics let’s leave it at that.
Theresa Rogers:
Oh I dunno … I’m sure Pope Francis and most NO priests would endorse Ardern. He probably thinks you’re a bit ‘rigid’. 👌
https://www.forbes.com/.../against-the-catholic-grain.../
Against The Catholic Grain: Pope Francis Trumpets Socialism Over Capitalism.
Remember Francis saying you shouldn’t be ‘rigid’ about politicians who endorse abortion because there are other more socialist and environmental issues that are also important.
Just more ‘rigid’ Catholics being ‘rigid’...https://www.nytimes.com/.../biden-vatican-communion... Vatican Warns U.S. Bishops: Don’t Deny Biden Communion Over Abortion NYTIMES.COM Vatican Warns U.S. Bishops: Don’t Deny Biden Communion Over Abortion “He recalled, as he has in the past, that people who take rigid positions are usually using them to mask their own problems, scandals or "imbalances."”
This is probably why you’re so ‘rigid’ against Ardern. Rigid conservatism masking you’re own imbalances. Not ‘progressive’ enough. Pope Francis wants you to be more progressive. https://www.ncronline.org/.../pope-denounces-rigidity-he warns of Christian decline - NCRONLINE.ORG; Pope denounces 'rigidity' as he warns of Christian decline.
Brad Larsen:
Mark, it matters precious little my brother whether you’re ‘comfortable in both forms’ or not - the Church has definitively defined at Trent that the Novus Ordo is outside of the bounds of Catholic doctrine. Our Lady of Good Success has warned with the Magisterium’s formal approval that the deviation that emerged at the Second Vatican Council is contrary to the will of Almighty God. To defend the Novus Ordo is at best the fruit of ignorance.
Mark Gasparini:
The Holy Spirit gave us both forms of the Mass. if you can’t accept Vatican 2 which was entered into in the same manner and spirit as the Council of Trent how can you believe either. God is in charge of all of this. Sure the devil has made his play as well. Do you think the Lord is not brought to us in the Consecration at the Novus Ordo Mass? If He is then the Mass has served what Jesus instituted it for. I understand that people have preferences in a lot of things but you need to be balanced when speaking on the Mass or you may find yourself a heretic. Something reminiscent of Luther who also took his concerns too far.
I say: I'm not at all sure that 'the Holy Spirit gave us both forms of the Mass'. Yes, the Holy Spirit was invoked at Vatican II but all the evidence suggests he was largely ignored or His suggestions deliberately flouted.
Philippa O'Neill:
Julia, I had a 90 year old woman talk to me after Mass at St Brigid's, Feilding...she was thrilled we knelt during the Consecration as the church design is actually to make that impossible. She lamented that there were no children at the Mass (or young adults) and that give 20 or so years and the church will be empty. Soooooo I gave her hope by telling her all about the growth in the Traditional churches. She said, but that was hard and now church is so much easier. So I asked her if that was a bad thing, being harder. All her 5 kids are no longer at church or her younger siblings. Well, there's her answer.
Brad Larsen:
Mark, this has nothing to do with preferences I have to tell you - there a few Latinists at the TLM myself included - rather simple Faithful who yearn for authentic Catholicism and the Mass which it brings and its subsequent doctrine which is devoid of Modernism. No one here is denying the validity of the Sacrament at the Novus Ordo, but there’s much more to Mass than that otherwise we’d suffice ourselves with a Consecration on its own, but that wouldn’t be the Mass would it? There’s much more to it than that.
If you stick to the old Mass and the totality of Sacred Tradition there’s zero chance you’ll turn out a heretic, the same cannot be said for doing the same around the New Order I’m afraid and the reality of that is all around you in the modern parish.
Lastly If you know anything at all about Trent and Vatican II you wouldn’t dare make the claim above. They are as different as can be in all these aspects and more. I suggest you read the following for starters about the facts of VII and how it was a tool by the heretics in waiting to upend God’s Church:
https://www.bookdepository.com/Iota-Unum.../9780963903211
Iota Unum Changes in Catholic : Amerio Roman : 9780963903211
BOOKDEPOSITORY.COM
Iota Unum Changes in Catholic : Amerio Roman : 9780963903211
Theresa Rogers: Mark, just yesterday I went to a Novus Ordo Mass. It was a large gathering for a special event. I watched the priests and bishop entertain the crowd, cracking jokes, and being generally comic stand-up routine. Then during Communion they wandered around the crowd with other Eucharistic ministers. Even though there were multiple priests at this event. Women still wandered with the Precious Blood.
My son and I watched as all around the small church people received Communion in their hands. And immediately after putting it in their mouths, tapped others on the shoulder to say hi, and chatted.
What I SAW was thousands of tiny particles of the Host being dropped all over the carpet and being trodden on by hundreds of feet.
It broke my heart knowing that after the Mass, the vacuum would be pulled out and fragments, probably thousands of them already trodden into the carpet, will be sucked up and thrown in the bin. My thirteen year old son was so distraught watching this he has told me he never wants to attend a NO mass again.
So yeah, it’s valid. And I’m sure Luther would approve. Perhaps that’s why the Vatican honoured Luther by putting him on a postage stamp. Because you know, it’s not like they have Catholic saints they could have honoured instead.
If my son and I are heretics, then I don’t know what to say.
And by the way, even though there were so many priests at the Mass, there was still an insistence on all the readings (except the gospel obviously) being done by old ladies while the priests stood aside like useless ornaments.
Why was that? I really don’t understand.
Mark Gasparini:
Theresa, I am not saying the new Mass is not open to abuse. It is often abused where the Latin Mass is more formalised and therefore not open to abuse but that doesn’t mean the Holy Spirit didn’t proceed with the new form. Brad Larsen mentioned that there is zero percent of being a heretic if one followed the Traditional Rite. We know that’s false because we have always had heretical Catholics before the 1960’s and including the Protestant revolution. Regarding the councils of Trent and the Vatican. My point was only that we can not say is more valid than the other. They were both instituted by the pope of the day and attended by the Bishops and Cardinals of their time. No doubt this being the devil’s time and the faith of this time weak compared to the earlier council many errors and evils have come about in the ensuing time since Vatican 2. God is with His Church until the end. Let’s take our hope from that.
Theresa Rogers:
Mark, there can be heretical behaviour everywhere. In the Latin Mass or NO. However…. In NZ, I have only witnesses Eucharistic abuse in NO Mass. And shockingly so. I’ve even seen non Catholics given the Eucharist and Blood of Christ spilt on the carpet.
I am attending NO Mass now as a repentance for our sins and to ask God for forgiveness. My son was going to as well, but it was just too much for him and damaging to his faith. So he said he will only go to Latin Mass and he will pray for me while I'm at NO.
I have never once said the NO Mass is not valid. But it’s wide open to many abuses. And you don’t need to go far to witness them endlessly. I attend them now as a penance. Because we obviously deserve it.
I say:
I agree, of course. One form of the Mass is no more valid than the other. But the Extraordinary Form has so much more potential to return people to the faith, to strengthen the faith, than does the Ordinary Form. So we should promote the former for all we're worth.
Theresa Rogers:
By the way, I’ve seen the Latin Mass with one priest go through a crowd of a couple of hundred giving Eucharist on the tongue faster than this whole bunch of priests and Eucharistic ministers wandering around giving it on the hand. It was so ironic to watch the shambles.
I say:
Theresa, yes, my attendance at the NO is absolutely a penance in reparation for sin, my own and others'. My dilemma now is whether to continue attending - and playing the organ - at the NO, given that the Bishops' Vax Promo is due to be shown this Sunday. Can I in conscience continue to attend the NO in my parish, when in this way it has abandoned the Magisterium and made a mockery of the Lord's Sacrifice on Calvary which we commemorate in Holy Mass? I trust in the Holy Spirit to tell me the answer.
Theresa Rogers:
Julia, the ONLY reason I now go to NO is penance for Eucharistic abuse there. I have been driven to do so. Other than this, I simply can’t stomach it. Only Gods grace even allows me to be able to attend without losing the plot.
I will add you to my daily rosary prayers that God may give you the grace to continue.
Brad Larsen:
Mark, I said that if you follow the traditional Sacraments AND the totality of Sacred Tradition you cannot go wrong - there’s a difference. The infamous heretics of their day always departed from Tradition in one way shape or form. And in terms of Trent versus Vatican II you may want to do some research before asserting such things Mark because that’s incorrect. Trent and all other Councils with the EXCEPTION of Vatican II proclaimed doctrine and dogma infallibly where’s VII makes no such claim - it was a PASTORAL Council with no intention to bind in that way. It was a novelty in that and many other regards. To compare VII with any other Council I’d like apple and pears I’m afraid.
Julia, you ask good questions and bless you for taking the Faith so seriously when the majority choose to ‘go with the flow’. It’s an individual journey in many ways although if you’re asking these sort of questions I can tell you right now where you could easily end up - it’s a beautiful place but not without significant sacrifices! The Holy Ghost will show you the way. For me and my wife we couldn’t in good conscience pretend to ‘not see’ what we’d been shown and for the sake of our children we had to find a better way and praise God we have and I’m so grateful for being led where we have. God bless and keep you!
Mark Gasparini:
Theresa, I find it strange that you are going to a NO Mass as a penance? Receiving the Lord in whichever Mass you attend is a great grace and should never be viewed as a penance. In the NO Mass if the priest is holy, as they all should be, the Mass will be what it should be.
Theresa Rogers:
Mark, observing the spiritual abuses there is the penance. I’m not even convinced my priest still believes in God…if he did, how could he give the Eucharist to visiting Anglicans and anyone else who feels like it that’s not even a baptised Catholic? Is he ok about damning their souls? And his own? Watching it all is painful. If it’s painful for me, I can only imagine how it must be for Jesus Christ to see people who have never confessed and who may be in mortal sin receiving His Body and Blood. Here’s the thing. It’s not about me.
Attending NO mass is often torturous. It truly is. Even the homilies are torturous half the time because they rabbit on about saving the planet or how Muslims worship the same God. May as well listen to Jacinda Ardern and the Green Party for the amount of spiritual sustenance there is.
Theresa Rogers:
The Catholic Church and Holy Communion:
The Catholic Church sets out specific guidelines regarding how we should prepare ourselves to receive the Lord’s body and blood in Communion. First, you must be in a state of grace. “Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (1 Cor. 11:27–28). This is an absolute requirement that can never be dispensed. To receive the Eucharist without sanctifying grace in your soul profanes the Eucharist in the most grievous manner.
A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and deliberately engaging in impure thoughts (Matt. 5:28–29). Scripture contains lists of mortal sins (for example, 1 Cor. 6:9–10 and Gal. 5:19–21). For further information on what constitutes a mortal sin, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
The Church’s ancient teaching on this particular matter is expressed in the Didache, an early Christian document written around A.D. 70, which states: “Whosoever is holy [i.e., in a state of sanctifying grace], let him approach. Whosoever is not, let him repent” (Didache 10).
Second, you must have been to confession since your last mortal sin. The Didache witnesses to this practice of the early Church. “But first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one” (Didache 14).
The 1983 Code of Canon Law indicates that the same requirement applies today. “A person who is conscious of a grave sin is not to . . . receive the body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession unless a grave reason is present and there is no opportunity of confessing; in this case the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible” (CIC 916).
The requirement for sacramental confession can be dispensed if four conditions are fulfilled: (1) there must be a grave reason to receive Communion (for example, danger of death), (2) it must be physically or morally impossible to go to confession first, (3) the person must already be in a state of grace through perfect contrition, and (4) he must resolve to go to confession as soon as possible.
Third, you must believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation. “For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself” (1 Cor. 11:29). Transubstantiation means more than the Real Presence. According to transubstantiation, the bread and wine are actually transformed into the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and only the appearances of bread and wine remain. This is why, at the Last Supper, Jesus held what appeared to be bread and wine, yet said: “This is my body. . . . This is my blood” (Mark 14:22-24, cf. Luke 22:14-20).
Fourth, you must observe the Eucharistic fast. Canon law states, “One who is to receive the most Holy Eucharist is to abstain from any food or drink, with the exception only of water and medicine, for at least the period of one hour before Holy Communion” (CIC 919 §1). Elderly people, those who are ill, and their caretakers are excused from the Eucharistic fast (CIC 191 §3). Priests and deacons may not dispense one obligated by the Eucharistic fast unless the bishop has expressly granted such power to them (cf. CIC 89).
Finally, one must not be under an ecclesiastical censure. Canon law mandates, “Those who are excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion” (CIC 915).
Provided they are in a state of grace and have met the above requirements, Catholics should receive the Eucharist frequently (CIC 898).
Non-Catholics Receiving Communion:
The guidelines for receiving Communion, which are issued by the U.S. bishops and published in many missalettes, explain, “Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law.”
Scripture is clear that partaking of the Eucharist is among the highest signs of Christian unity: “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread” (1 Cor. 10:17). For this reason, it is normally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive Holy Communion, for to do so would be to proclaim a unity to exist that, regrettably, does not.
Another reason that many non-Catholics may not ordinarily receive Communion is for their own protection, since many reject the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Scripture warns that it is very dangerous for one not believing in the Real Presence to receive Communion: “For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself” (1 Cor. 11:29).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/who-can-receive-communion
Who Can Receive Holy Communion?
CATHOLIC.COM
Who Can Receive Holy Communion?
This is why it’s a penance. I’ve witnessed this.
Mark Gasparini:
I totally agree with you. That is why you shop around and find a good priest. One who doesn’t follow the diocesan liberal agenda of Pope Francis and modernism. These priests are out there. It creeps me out when we keep praying for everyone to have access to the vaccine and for climate issues that are all part of the masonic socialist agenda and never pray for ending abortion. These prayers come from the diocese but there are priests in the NO Masses who are quietly resisting all of that. You can tell who they are as they are the ones who have fill churches. The problem you’re talking about is with the Bishops and priests and not so much with the Mass.
I say:
Mark, the faithful in rural areas don't have the luxury of shopping around for a good priest. They're too far away. It's a condemnation of the NO that country people must often suffer heretical aberrations in the local PP which would have rarely if ever occurred pre-Vat II. And if heretical aberrations had occurred in the PP, an appeal to the bishop would have brought a swift reaction. But not now - it's a waste of time.
Mark Gasparini:
Julia, then in a respectful way you need to be a thorn in the side of your priest and let him know he needs to raise his game and aim for sanctity and not mediocrity. A prayerful witness is powerful.
I say:
Mark, my PP is quite assured of sanctity. And so is all his flock, without exception. So he says. My attempts to 'raise his game' are to say the least, not welcome.
Mark Gasparini:Theresa I empathise, absolutely. I no longer attend Mass as I used to 2 -3 times a week at the Cistercian abbey called 'Kopua' (actually Our Lady of the Southern Star Abbey) because Holy Communion is given indiscriminately to allcomers, including the good Anglican couple who run the guest house. And Fr Verkley (known as Fr Nicho) who serves as abbot (only two priests there now, not enough to rate an abbot) in obedience to +Dew - although as Cistercians I believe they are not bound to obedience to the diocesan bishop - has banned Communion on the tongue. It's nothing short of tragic.
Brad Larsen:
Mark, I agree with everything you’ve said above except for the last bit. It’s all about the Mass. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi. If you destroy the former (the Mass) you destroy the latter (the Faith). There will be exceptions with some Faithful who stay in the NO but they are the exceptions. Not the norm. The fruit of the Council including the NO is rotten. Most people have left physically or mentally. That’s the context for the behaviour and beliefs above - it’s not a coincidence.
Theresa Rogers:
Mark, I haven’t seen a NO mass done ‘correctly’ and yes the problem still is with the mass because they have excluded so much that is Catholic. Watering down the faith so much that 70% of Catholics no longer believe in the real presence. That is a direct result of the Mass. I’m sure there are good NO priests out there. Unfortunately I don’t know where they are.
I say:
Theresa, I know one 'good priest'. He longs to quit the N O and celebrate the TLM exclusively. I know another who started to learn how to say the Latin Mass. He was moved on.
Theresa Rogers:
Julia after watching Bishop Dunn and his stand up comedy routine in the Mass, I have zero faith that telling him about anything has any value. In fact, I can see why my local priest seems to have the same stand up comedy routine in our church. And yes, rural people don’t have the luxury of shopping around. My priest serves three areas locally. And I have to travel an hour every two weeks to fssp and SSPX mass already.
The alternate weeks I’m now going to my local mass as penance for the endless sins and disrespect against the blessed sacrament. Where the majority of people attending seem to be there out of habit because they are mostly over 70 years old.
The women Eucharistic ministers surely mustn’t really believe they are handing out Jesus Christ’s body blood soul and divinity, because if they did, they wouldn’t dare to touch it and spill it on the carpet. Even after spilling it they still persist in their arrogance.